This is the first topic I've started, so I hope someone reads it. And that someone responds. And that I'm doing it correctly. And that there's not a topic already like this (I did do some searches, and didn't find one).

Some of my favorite SciFi and fantasy books incorporate some sort of theology into them. Their authors have been more or less successful at deftly fitting such ideas into their stories. Some authors stick pretty close to a religion's orthodoxy, while others don't.

Notable examples include:

Neil himself, of course
C.S. Lewis
Mary Doria Russell
Phillip Pullman
Orson Scott Card
Dan Simmons

Of course, a lot of books feature a savior-Christ type figure, but I'm thinking about a more explicit connection to theology than that.

So, opening this up to discussion . . . how do you all feel about this approach generally?
About the particular authors I've mentioned?

Do you think SciFi and religion are a happy fit? Russell's books are some of my favorites, because I really enjoy her attempt to ground her book in predictions about the future of Catholicism that were at least slightly grounded in reality.

Most of the authors I've mentioned incorporate Christian theology. Can anyone recommend authors using other religions? It also seems to me that there are some SciFi/Fantasy authors who have attempted to create theologies largely from the ground up, only loosely relying on actual religions, although no one is leaping to mind.

Are your feelings about this kind of approach influenced by your own religious beliefs? I myself was raised Catholic, but don't really practice anymore. On the other hand, I studied medieval history in college, which definitely means getting a lot of theology on the side. I think that's why I like this kind of writing, if it's done well.

I definitely hesitated to give Pullman's Golden Compass to a friend of mine who is pretty devout. I wasn't sure what she would think. I definitely liked the books, but even as a non-practicing Catholic, I felt a little uncomfortable with his ideas.

Major authors I've forgotten? - I'm sure there are many, since I'm not as well-read as I'd like to be.

Any responses are most welcome!

As Christianity is the relgious foundation of the West, using analogy to it is a great way of instantly accessing reader familiarities, and sharing a plaform to communicate ideas based on comparison to such - albeit, dressed a little different.

It's actually quite a hard mould to break from, as it requires at least a basic understanding of the issues being addressed. To reform these ideas into the language of another religion, and to do so successfully, I guess would take years of experience with such systems. And for an author that's probably not a priority option! Of course, if it were done, the author would have simply succeeded with supplanting analogies - which would barely seem the effort.


Epic Fantasy and Sci-fi:

Chronicles of Empire

You might want to check out Gene Wolfe - It's a difficult read, but his Book of The New Sun is one of the most Theologically deep works I've ever read.

Since boredom advances and boredom is the root of all evil, no wonder, then, that the world goes backwards, that evil spreads. This can be traced back to the very beginning of the world. The gods were bored; therefore they created human beings. - Soren Kierkegaard

I have never seen Neil really do anything using Christian theology. Look at American Gods. Not one of the gods has Christian roots (unless I am not remembering correctly). He does, however, seem quite fond of using material from pagan and, in particular, Norse and Middle Eastern religions.

Neil and Terry's "Good Omens" worked straight from the christian tradition. Devils, the four horsemen, and a never told before story about the conversation between god and an angel about a flaming sword used to bar Adam and Eve from Eden.

There's also Cain, Abel, and Eve from Sandman.

The use/theft of the Christian tradition in english writings (not just scifi/fanstasy) is very, very common. The King James version of the bible was routinely part of a educated reader's study, so references to it are everywhere. Even with the decline of its direct readership, everyone who writes in english reads someone who read it, so bits and pieces of it are incorporated into just about everything (although sometimes it is just a phrase or two that originated there).

Arthur C. Clark - "Childhood's End"
and the TV series "Babylon 5" both played with the images and devils and angels and how humanity's imagination about those things were sparked by aliens. At this point, such an idea can be considered a cliche. The comics under DC's Wildstorm imprint also come to mind for this. Finding others that used this idea wouldn't be that hard.

For a more traditional christian theology, angels and devils are regular features in the DC universe and in Spawn. Marvel distances itself a bit more from such things, but there are plenty of demon type bad guys running around their universe, too.

For a really unsettling experience with the Christian tradition, check out Garth Ennis' work, "Preacher". Very disgusting work, but with a very serious theological point.

And somehow, this post became concentrated the comic book end of fiction. And just the christian end at that. Lots of other things to say, but I want to check out the rest of the board before going to shovel to snow in my driveway. I'll be back.

quote:

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Originally posted by Grand:
I have never seen Neil really do anything using Christian theology.

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But, he uses Angels quite a bit, and I always associate Angels with Christian beliefs (ex: Sandman:SOM, Murder Mysteries, Neverwhere, Good Omens)

quote:

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how do you all feel about this approach generally?

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Sci-fi and religion? I think it works great together when done right. People who have good imaginations are often good philosophers as well, so their speculations are always interesting

-GMZoe
adding Frank Herbert to list

quote:

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Originally posted by GMZoe:
But, he uses Angels quite a bit, and I always associate Angels with Christian beliefs (ex: Sandman:SOM, Murder Mysteries, Neverwhere, Good Omens)

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"Good Omens" always kinda reminded me of Rushdie's "The Satanic Verses" - lots of similarities, including angels. And Rushdie's book is based on the Koran, obviously. Angels are an old-testament thing, so it's shared by both Christian, Jewish and Muslim belief.

I never really saw the One God which is hinted at in Sandman as the Christian God. I sort of saw it as the 'shared' One God of those three religions. Same thing with Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel. They're shared by the three religions too.

- Michael

Of course the biggest religion/sci fi writer crossover guy is L Ron Hubbard, who was smart enough to figure out that if he was going to create a sci fi religion from scratch, he could just as well start a real world cult around it and get rich. Being a cult leader pays better than being a sci fi writer.

- Michael

quote:

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Originally posted by Holly_L:

Major authors I've forgotten? - I'm sure there are many, since I'm not as well-read as I'd like to be.
!

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Roger Zelazny's "THe Lord of Light" is based on the Hindu religion. Personally I've never been able to get into it, but it's an acclaimed classic, and one of the main influences of writers like Neil Gaiman and Alan Moore. (As far as I remember Alan Moore speaks about Zelazny's influence on both of them in a short interview in "the Sandman companion")

Amazon.com review:

"In the 1960s, Roger Zelazny dazzled the SF world with what seemed to be inexhaustible talent and inventiveness. Lord of Light, his third novel, is his finest book: a science fantasy in which the intricate, colorful mechanisms of Hindu religion, capricious gods, and repeated reincarnations are wittily underpinned by technology. "For six days he had offered many kilowatts of prayer, but the static kept him from being heard On High." The gods are a starship crew who subdued a colony world; developed godlike--though often machine-enhanced--powers during successive lifetimes of mind transfer to new, cloned bodies; and now lord it over descendants of the ship's mere passengers. Their tyranny is opposed by retired god Sam, who mocks the Celestial City, introduces Buddhism to subvert Hindu dogma, allies himself with the planet's native "demons" against Heaven, fights pyrotechnic battles with bizarre troops and weapons, plays dirty with politics and poison, and dies horribly but won't stay dead. It's a huge, lumbering, magical story, told largely in flashback, full of wonderfully ornate language (and one unforgivable pun) that builds up the luminous myth of trickster Sam, Lord of Light. Essential SF reading." --David Langford, Amazon.co.uk



Book Description:
"Earth is long since dead. On a colony planet, a band of men has gained control of technology, made themselves immortal, and now rule their world as the gods of the Hindu pantheon. Only one dares oppose them: he who was once Siddhartha and is now Mahasamatman. Binder of Demons, Lord of Light.

In a distinguished career which produced many bold, award-winning works, this towering tale of invention and adventure may be Roger Zelazny's single most brilliant achievement. Earth is long since dead.On a colony planet, a band of men has gained control of technology, made themselves immortal, and now rule their world as the gods of the Hindu pantheon.Only one dares oppose them: he who was once Siddhartha and is now Mahasamatman.Binder of Demons, Lord of Light.

In a distinguished career which produced many bold, award-winning works, this towering tale of invention and adventure may be Roger Zelazny's single most brilliant achievement.Earth is long since dead.On a colony planet, a band of men has gained control of technology, made themselves immortal, and now rule their world as the gods of the Hindu pantheon.Only one dares oppose them: he who was once Siddhartha and is now Mahasamatman.Binder of Demons, Lord of Light.

In a distinguished career which produced many bold, award-winning works, this towering tale of invention and adventure may be Roger Zelazny's single most brilliant achievement."


- Michael

[This message was edited by mtxx on January 12, 2003 at 03:36 PM.]

[This message was edited by mtxx on January 12, 2003 at 03:37 PM.]

Also, there's a whole subgenre out there of fundamentalist Christian sci fi about the Apocalypse and the Rapture.

I admit I'm biased, but my feeling is that admirers of 'literature' should stay far away.

An article here: http://www.strangehorizons.com/2002/20020408/apocalyptic.shtml

There's also a whole sub-genre of preachy low-budget apocalypse movies out there made by fundamentalist Christians.

Michael Tolkin's "The Rapture", which I've unfortunately never seen (DVD RELEASE, PLEEEEASE!!), is usually considered one of the few good entries in the genre. But from what I've understood that movie is actually sort of slyly critisicing fundamentalist religion - Tolkin is the guy who wrote Robert Altman's "The Player", which made fun of Hollywood.

"The Rapture", review:

Amazon.com:
"Once upon a time, in the 1980s and early 1990s, American independent movies did not seek to merely ape Hollywood formulas. They were more than just feature-length resumes for shrewd, enterprising filmmakers who had nothing to say, but dreamed of saying it with a big-studio budget. Back then, independent films provided a different kind of movie experience; they challenged and provoked audiences--and none more so than 1991's The Rapture, written and directed by Michael Tolkin, the man who wrote the screenplay for The Player, Robert Altman's scathing anti-Hollywood comedy. Mimi Rogers plays Sharon, a lost soul who gives up her hedonistic life of sex and drugs when she finds God and becomes a fundamentalist Christian fanatic. Her pilgrim's progress, presented in a deadpan, nonjudgmental style, culminates quite literally in the title event--the Second Coming, the Apocalypse, the end of the world, or whatever you want to call it. Rogers's fearless performance becomes all the more provocative when you recall that the actress is a lifelong member of the Church of Scientology. The Rapture is a mind-boggling, wildly ambitious movie that's open to myriad interpretations. But no matter what you make of it, it's sure to leave you engaged and shaken." --Jim Emerson

- Michael

[This message was edited by mtxx on January 12, 2003 at 03:32 PM.]

Oh, and "Small Gods" by Terry Pratchett is one of the most moving and sensible novels I've ever read about religion. It's also one of the funniest, obviously.

- Michael

There's a list of sci fi/fantasy writers using religious themes here: http://sfandf.owlcroft.com/relig.shtml

THe list made me remember Richard Adams' "Shardik", which is a brilliant fantasy epic about religious fanaticism. It's also a better book than his more wellknown "Watership Down".

user review from the Web:

"Richard Adamss _Shardik_ is set in an imaginary world, though Adams, like Tolkien, hints that in fact it is simply the remote past of our own world. The central action of the story concerns a giant bear worshipped by a tribe living on the southern limits of the great Beklan empire. This tribe, the Ortelgans, believe that Shardiks purpose is to lead them to greatness, and so when he appears they follow him in a glorious campaign to conquer the Empire. But is Shardik really a god, or just a very big bear whose thoroughly animal-like actions are given meaning by his followers? Adams wisely never really answers this question, and this is the great fascination of the book. Adams faces head-on the charge that religion is simply a tool for oppression and exploitation. He avoids a simplistic answer largely through his complex portrayal of the central human character, Shardiks prophet Kelderek. Kelderek is a simple tribesman who sincerely believes himself to have been chosen by Shardik for great purposes. While many of his actions are evil, we are never allowed to lose sympathy with him or to suspect him of hypocrisy, while at the same time we come to sympathize more and more with the characters who oppose his fanatical regime. At the end, Kelderek sees the evil he has done in the name of God, and begins to understand what Shardiks true purpose is--or does he simply misunderstand yet again? The greatness of this novel is in the fact that while it has a strong moral message, it always conveys this message through the actions and words of its characters. Adams lets the world he has created speak for itself. In the end we can choose to believe or not to believe.
For readers like myself who themselves practice a religion, the novel is a powerful portrayal of the way the divine can be distorted and misunderstood by even the sincerest believer, even while God always remains transcendent, able to pierce through our comfortable blindness with the shocking light of his grace."


- Michael

[This message was edited by mtxx on January 12, 2003 at 04:34 PM.]

Oh yeah, and Philip Jose Farmer's "Riverworld" series must be read to be believed - a classic! All human beings who EVER lived wakes up after their death and discovers that they've been resurrected along the bank of an endless river on another planet. Who did it, and why? The ultimate sci fi novel about resurrection. And it's got a few famous chracters as protagonists in some books, including Sir Richar Burton, Herman Göring and Mark Twain.

Amazon.com:
"To Your Scattered Bodies Go is the Hugo Award-winning beginning to the story of Riverworld, Philip José Farmer's unequaled tale about life after death. When famous adventurer Sir Richard Francis Burton dies, the last thing he expects to do is awaken naked on a foreign planet along the shores of a seemingly endless river. But that's where Burton and billions of other humans (plus a few nonhumans) find themselves as the epic Riverworld saga begins. It seems that all of Earthly humanity has been resurrected on the planet, each with an indestructible container that provides three meals a day, cigarettes, alcoholic beverages, a lighter, and the odd tube of lipstick. But why? And by whom?

That's what Burton and a handful of fellow adventurers are determined to discover as they construct a boat and set out in search of the river's source, thought to be millions of miles away. Although there are many hardships during the journey--including an encounter with the infamous Hermann Goring--Burton's resolve to complete his quest is strengthened by a visit from the Mysterious Stranger, a being who claims to be a renegade within the very group that created the Riverworld. The stranger tells Burton that he must make it to the river's headwaters, along with a dozen others the Stranger has selected, to help stop an evil experiment at the end of which humanity will simply be allowed to die." --Craig E. Engler

Book Description:
"All those who ever lived on Earth have found themselves resurrected--healthy, young, and naked as newborns--on the grassy banks of a mighty river, in a world unknown. Miraculously provided with food, but with no clues to the meaning of their strange new afterlife, billions of people from every period of Earth's history--and prehistory--must start again.

Sir Francis Bacon would be the first to glimpse the incredible way-station, a link between worlds. This forbidden sight would spur the renowned 19th-century explorer to uncover the truth. Along with a remarkable group of compatriots, including Alice Liddell Hargreaves (the Victorian girl who was the inspiration for Alice in Wonderland), an English-speaking Neanderthal, a WWII Holocaust survivor, and a wise extraterrestrial, Burton sets sail on the magnificent river. His mission: to confront humankind's mysterious benefactors, and learn the true purpose--innocent or evil--of the Riverworld . . . "

- Michael

quote:

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Originally posted by Captain Psyko:
You might want to check out Gene Wolfe - It's a difficult read, but his Book of The New Sun is one of the most Theologically deep works I've ever read.

_Since boredom advances and boredom is the root of all evil, no wonder, then, that the world goes backwards, that evil spreads. This can be traced back to the very beginning of the world. The gods were bored; therefore they created human beings. _ - Soren Kierkegaard

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I second this, especially after reading Sword and Citadel this summer. Not to mention his Book of the Long Sun series deals with the issue from a different angle, that of "false" gods.

***

La vida no es la que uno vivió, sino la que uno recuerda y cómo la recuerda para contarla (Life isn't what one lived, but what one remembers and how one remembers it to tell it) - Gabriel García Márquez, Vivir para contarla

Hey, everyone, I just wanted to thank you for the recommendations, and thanks to Michael (mtxx) especially for the link to the extensive list on the website. I'm definitely putting the books you've all recommended on my list of books to read.

But anyone else who also has recommendations, please keep 'em coming! Or other points to add/argue as well, of course.

There's Jack Chalker's terrible interpretation of the Christian mythos in The Quintara Marathon trilogy (Demons at Rainbow Bridge, Run to Chaos Keep and The Ninety Trillion Fausts.) The books themselves are simple but enjoyable sci-fi, but the over-arching theme of angels and demons and God is rather juvenile.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/series/-/805/ref=pd_sr_ec_ser_/103-6617101-7665464

Sheila Moon is a great writer of young adult books based on a Native American spirituality. She never got the credit she deserves. Check out "Knee-Deep in Thunder."
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0917479084/qid=1042471950/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-6617101-7665464?v=glance&s=books

Terry Pratchett's "Small Gods" has a lot of hidden depth, and it's fun to boot. And the religion more than vaguely resembles Christianity in the Dark Ages.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0061092177/qid=1042471965/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-6617101-7665464

Madeleine L'Engle is one of the more shamelessly Christian talented writers in her field. Read . . . well, anything, but start with "A Wrinkle in Time."
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0440498058/qid=1042472208/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-6617101-7665464

For the more obvious allegories, there's the Narnia series, by C.S. Lewis, and the Anthropos Archives, by John White. The latter is a much more forward allegory, which makes some people more comfortable with it.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0064471195/qid=1042472225/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-6617101-7665464

There's more, which I'll post when I have the time.

Good, my dog found the chainsaw.
-Lilo

Religion is a means by which humans explain and understand the world around them.

Science fiction and fantasy perform nearly the same function. I think they dovetail quite nicely.

Good, my dog found the chainsaw.
-Lilo

Oh and Holly - if you want advice from the best in the field, then look for John Clute's "Encyclopaedia of Science Fiction" and "Encyclopaedia of Fantasy" at your library - and look up the subject "religion" in the two books - there you'll find discussions of all the really important novels and short stories that covers the theme.

- Michael

[This message was edited by mtxx on January 13, 2003 at 01:05 PM.]

and I just realized that two of the novels I mentioned, Richard Adams' "Shardik" and Terry Pratchett's "Small Gods" tell more or less exactly the same story. But they're two very good versions of the same story.

- Michael

As an aside, for a totally invented mythology, check out most stories by HP Lovecraft.
The Call of Chtulhu is always a good start. I also like Dagon, and The Horror of Dunwich. There are lots more.

______________________________________
I danced along a colored wind,
dangled from a rope of sand
You must say goodbye to me
- Tom Waits