Agreed, but avoid like the plauge anyone claiming to have "collaborated" with him. They are the literary equivalent of snakeoil salesmen.

Good, my dog found the chainsaw.
-Lilo

Dweller, this is indeed true with *maybe* the exception of the unfinished stories by HPL completed by August Derleth. The rest is utter crap. But the original Lovecraft, I remember memorizing all these weird deity names as a teenager, Chtulhu, Shub-Niggurath, Nyarlathothep, Azatoth, etc.

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I danced along a colored wind,
dangled from a rope of sand
You must say goodbye to me
- Tom Waits

Frank Herbert and the Dune books discuss a lot of religion not really any particular religion but the underlying power religion has and how those in power use it to control the population. Its still over my head and unless I take notes, I get to the sixth book I can't remember stuff from the first, I need a tape recorder. I wonder if Someone could get tired of their own voice?

I think theology and science fiction often get interwoven together, sometimes unconsiously. While there is a place for it, many authors lately seem to be adding a Christ or godlike complex to a main character for shock value when in reality it is something that has lost a lot of schok value because of it's recent commonality in a variety of genres.

On an unrealted note, a sci-fi/fantasy book of a more realistic kind (without a god complex) is "Adventure-Into the Neverland" by James Hood. Check it out. It is about an expidition into an alternate world and manages not to get Star Trek with the concepts. The author described it in an interview as "lite sci-fi." It's avaiable in hardcover and paperback through Amazon.com.
Here's the link for anyone who is interested.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0759626464/qid=1049227341/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-3019791-6967066?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

I'm seconding Dweller's Madeleine L'Engle nomination. She's shameless, but in a very good way.

I can't think very well right now, I'll see if I can't come up with any more later.

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ARTHUR: By what name are you known?
AMY: There are some who call me... 'Amy'?
ARTHUR: Greetings, Amy of Doom.
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quote:

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Originally posted by mtxx:
Oh yeah, and Philip Jose Farmer's "Riverworld" series must be read to be believed - a classic!

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I started the first book eons ago and hadn't been able to finish it. I didn't care for it very much, but I might not have been ready for it. I think I was still in high school when I encountered it. I might add the series back onto my "to read" list.

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ARTHUR: By what name are you known?
AMY: There are some who call me... 'Amy'?
ARTHUR: Greetings, Amy of Doom.
****************************

L'Engle is "shamelessly Christian"? As though it were something of which to be ashamed? George MacDonald's Lilith & Phantases are incredible.

quote:

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Originally posted by aspyre:
L'Engle is "shamelessly Christian"? As though it were something of which to be ashamed?

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yet both posters praised her 'shamelessly' Christian work, so I don't think it was meant to be a detrimental as you're reading it as. Dweller, Aitapata, care to comment?

The adjective just gave me pause, especially as I've heard others accuse L'Engle & Lewis of betraying them as children by incorporating a Christian paradigm. To say nothing of the umbrage taken when you point out that Tolkien was responsible for Lewis' conversion. There are brilliant, imaginative people drawn to sci-fi/fantasy, but also many broken psyches. Not to imply that of anyone who responded, merely an observation on a strong current of opposition to religious fantasy.

Most writers who have religion in their lives end up reflecting it in their work. Thats pretty accepted and acceptable. Provided its done well, it works. It just becomes part of the ethos of their work.

On the other hand, I'm also one of those who was never quite able to forgive the Narnia books turning out to be allegory. The incorporation of beliefs is not a problem for me, but downright preaching was, and still is. I don't mind religion in books, I do mind an author drawing me into a story on false pretences.

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'Huns! Visigoths! Vandals!'
(Hugh, Brian Friel's Translations)

What about Animal Farm?

I'm just about to start writing a paper about some of this, so this thread will probarbly prove very helpful.Contributing with a quote I'm using:

"You will be both grieved and amused to hear that out of about 60 reviews only 2 showed any knowledge that my idea of the fall of the Bent One was anything but an invention of my own. But if there only was someone with a richer talent and more leisure I think that this great ignorance might help to the evangelisation of England; any amount of theology can now be smuggled into peoples minds under the cover of romance without their knowing it.".
C.S. Lewis "Letter to a Lady", 9 Juli 1939 Nietzsche, Tolkiens art p. 1

It's all a big conspiracy Not religious myself, but I'm finding the idea of "hidden" messages in popular fiction quite fascinating. Sandman for post-structuralistic language theory ["There's a whole mythology deposited in language" - Wittgenstein], Matrix for anarcism and Buffy for performative feminism. It's going to be loades of fun analyzing this, whatever my result will turn out to be.

so, are you considering symbolism and subliminal messages the same thing then?

Not at all. I don't think it's in *any way* a conspiracy either. It was meant as some kind of ironic overstatement.

Some other authors I don't yet see mentioned include:

- Jacqueline Carey
- Sharon Shinn
- Doris Lessing (in particular, the Canopus in Argos series)

Though I am definitely branching into a broader "spirituality" (as compared to specifically organized religions) with that last one. ;-)

Jacqueline Carey's books are amazing. I am not personally into sadism or masochism, which play significant roles in her works (her main character, Phedre, mixes pain and pleasure), but I like the world-building, character development, plot, and overall writing style so well I devour them when they come out and recommend them to anyone I think open-minded enough to appreciate them. :-)

I've only read one of Sharon Shinn's books ("Wrapt in Crystal"). Religion is the central core of that one and, from what I understand, of her Samaria trilogy as well.

And bravo to whomever wrote in "Dune." I would've added that one if no one else had gotten around to it. :-)

Julianna

I'm amazed nobody has yet mentioned Storm Constantine. 'Burying the Shadow', and the Nephilim trilogy, all have to do with the Book of Enoch, the origin of that heretical strand of Judaeo-Christian theory that states that all mankind's essential knowledge (like magic, metalworking, weaponry, the use of medicines and, um, writing) was given to us by fallen angels.

On CS Lewis, there's a book coming out next year by one Ronald Hutton in which he claims that Lewis was far more interested in pagan and magical things than he should have been. (You can see this a little, for example, at the end of That Hideous Strength, where he brings on the angels of the planets.) Whether or not that's true, he did seem to be plagued by the question of whether or not there was anything worthwhile in the non-Christian religions, and whether you could worship God and still respect the gods. More complicated than he looks, I think.

Some of Ursula le Guin's work seems to be informed by Taoism, and some of it by Native American shamanic traditions. ('Always Coming Home', which draws on both, depicts a race who have a worldview, traditions and rituals with no gods as such.)

That's all I can think of right now that others haven't already mentioned, but I'm sure there's plenty more...

quote:

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Originally posted by GMZoe:

quote:

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Originally posted by aspyre:
L'Engle is "shamelessly Christian"? As though it were something of which to be ashamed?

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yet both posters praised her 'shamelessly' Christian work, so I don't think it was meant to be a detrimental as you're reading it as. Dweller, Aitapata, care to comment?

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...and so I see this nearly a year later....



I don't think aspyre is still around, but for the record, I said "shameless in a very good way." Meaning that she wasn't really trying to hide her intentions, but being quite blatant if you read it with the right eyes, and I felt that was a good thing.

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It turns out that not all the world's information is already on the Internet. -- Google

quote:

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Originally posted by aspyre:
The adjective just gave me pause, especially as I've heard others accuse L'Engle & Lewis of betraying them as children by incorporating a Christian paradigm. To say nothing of the umbrage taken when you point out that Tolkien was responsible for Lewis' conversion. There are brilliant, imaginative people drawn to sci-fi/fantasy, but also many broken psyches. Not to imply that of anyone who responded, merely an observation on a strong current of opposition to religious fantasy.

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one of my friends has that attitude, we're both pagan and she now 'hates' lewis, l'engle, and others for incorporating the christianity. i happen to dissagree with a lot of lewis' religion, but i enjoyed the books i did read (the lion the witch and the wardrobe, and one other, but it was so long ago i don't remember)
anyway, i disagree with that attitude, christianity is part of our culture and some people lives, therefore they have every right to put it into their writing.

i also think an interesting thing is that ann mccaffrey notably leaves religion out of pern. yet even without 'religion' i find that pern has a lot of mythology and ceremony of it's own. so i don't think she quite succeeded in leaving religion out.

I'm suprised that no one has mentioned Ursula LeGuin's Taoist views, as espoused in many of her books.

And she takes on patriarchal religion pretty much head on in her depiction of the conquering Dayao culture in Always Coming Home. Whether she wins or not (and her Kesh people in that book would probably say that by talking about "winning," I am looking at it from the wrong point of view ...) depends on your views on her views.

- Cho