Philip Pullman seems to be a bit of an odd'un. I've only read the 3 His Dark Materials books. There was something about his writing style that I just didn't connect with. I didn't feel as though I was really there with the characters, y'know? I always felt sort of distanced from the action.

However, I loved the characters and the storyline overall was brilliant! I thought The Amber Spyglass was by far the best, because Pullman's "somewhat unorthodox" views on Christianity finally came to the fore - and I found them very sensible and believable. He reconciled the whole "science vs religion" debate quite nicely.

I was particularly pleased when some right-wing critic labelled him "the most dangerous author in Britain," - after all, you can't have the kids making up their own minds about religion can you?!


And I think this world definitely needs some armoured bears.

I only read the first of the Dark Material Trilogy but I wasn't wholy impressed. Great idea badly written in my opinion. I just hate authors who patronise their readers (ie kids)

however I am told the other books are better

I wasn't so thrilled with his stuff either. At the beginning i loved it--there was this sense of mystery and magic. But the second book really bothered me because he spent so much time talking about The Wound, because i didn't like the concept of the subtle knife, and because "Cittagazze" is really weird to pronounce in Italian (should have been "Gazzecitta" to sound more natural). I know, the last point is nitpicky, but i place a lot of value on flow and sound.

I sort of understand his purpose in writing the series--a pointed reply to C.S. Lewis's hardcore Christianity--but it bothered me to see it in a children's series (the same way it bothers me to see it in the Narnia series--not for children, imho).

I dunno. Thought his writing was choppy.

Sorry to slam him so. I was just really disappointed.

_____
"You're innocent when you dream"
(anonymous graffito at the Someday Cafe)

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Originally posted by Circus:
I sort of understand his purpose in writing the series--a pointed reply to C.S. Lewis's hardcore Christianity--but it bothered me to see it in a children's series (the same way it bothers me to see it in the Narnia series--not for children, imho).

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I haven't read all of the Narnia series, but I was of the understanding that some people (Pullman included, actually) found the religious elements of the story distasteful because they were in the form of thinly-disguised allegory. Almost as though Lewis was trying to brainwash the kids without them noticing.

This could hardly be said for Pullman's books! He clearly WANTS his readers (young and old) to think about Christianity for themselves and not just blindly accept what others tell them.

Are you saying that the subject of religion is always unsuitable for children's literature, whether it is Lewis's "hardcore" views, or Pullman's "alternative" views? What do you think about adult fiction with religious content? (e.g. Quarantine, by Jim Crace)

I think childrens books SHOULD deal with weighty topics such as religion, and Pullman is right to do so. Why should the kids have to wait until they're older before they can read about these things?

I agree that children's literature shouldn't brush over important issues like God; the thoughts and ideas that one forms as a child greatly influence the ideas one has an adult. I'm a big fan of Narnia, and as a devote Christian, the allegory never bothered me. Some things about HIs Dark Materials did.

The things that bothered me the most was that He tried to make everything sound scientific and absolutely true, but alot of it didn't make any sense at all. I got so absolutly confused by his dark matter spiels that I lost track of the plot.

OVerall, I thought the books were really good. Lyra was a pretty cool little heroine, and I loved Pan~ her daemon. But that last book was terribly sad.

I enjoyed all three.
I must say that I just reread the Narnia series and I can't hardly read them anymore. Now I see the veiled Christianity I find them unpalatable.

I'm just surprised that with all of the heat that Rowling's taken over the witchcraft in Potter that Pullman hasn't had any bad press from the church.

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Originally posted by Alex:
I haven't read all of the Narnia series, but I was of the understanding that some people (Pullman included, actually) found the religious elements of the story distasteful because they were in the form of thinly-disguised allegory. Almost as though Lewis was trying to brainwash the kids without them noticing.

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I agree with this--it was a distasteful move on Lewis's part.

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This could hardly be said for Pullman's books! He clearly WANTS his readers (young and old) to think about Christianity for themselves and not just blindly accept what others tell them.

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This is where i disagree. I got the impression, when reading the series, that he was actively protesting Christianity (and Catholocism in particular), and that the entire point of the books was to use the same technique to opposite ends (i.e., thinly-disguised allegory). I think he doesn't want people to think about Christianity--he simply wants them to think that it's a bad religion (or even that organized religion in general is bad). I take this view because at the end of the books he (literally and symbolically) kills off the Judeo-Christian god.

quote:

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Are you saying that the subject of religion is always unsuitable for children's literature, whether it is Lewis's "hardcore" views, or Pullman's "alternative" views? What do you think about adult fiction with religious content? (e.g. Quarantine, by Jim Crace)

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Not always. I think that if children's books are going to include Christian content (or content that derives specifically from ANY religion), it should be clear that they do so. The author should make it clear that his/her purpose is to provide a piece of literature that is directly connected to religious beliefs.

As far as adult content, i think that by the time people are reading adult-level books (with a few exceptions), they've already experienced enough of the world to make decisions about religion, what they believe in, what they do or don't agree with in any given religion, and so on. Personally, i don't think it's really an issue for adult literature, since authors can reasonably make an assumption of a certain level of maturity in their readers.

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I think childrens books SHOULD deal with weighty topics such as religion, and Pullman is right to do so. Why should the kids have to wait until they're older before they can read about these things?

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I'm curious why you think so. Please explain more--i'm really interested in understanding your perspective on this one.

Personally, i think that kids shouldn't necessarily stray away from religious material; just that someone should be there to explain to them the significance of it. I don't believe in brainwashing kids to believe any particular religion--this kind of tactic seems to breed the occasional fanatic, and shuts kids' minds off to understanding other religions. I think it's possible to teach kids about all religions in a clear and respectful way, but i think it's something that has to be done carefully, simply because extreme zealousness can bring intolerance, misunderstanding, and closed-mindedness.

At the same time, i don't think it's fair to fight fire with fire. What Pullman did was to effectively tell kids that they shouldn't believe in any organized religion--and this is something that i disagree with. People should be free to believe, and they should be free to choose their beliefs. Note that Pullman's heroes (Lyra in particular) doesn't really think much about religion throughout the series, and furthermore, the characters who represent the Authority are all mindless, evil people. I think this is an unfair portrait of how religions operate.

Sorry if my view seems so muddled. I guess you could say my thoughts on this belong in the "radical middle."

_____
"You're innocent when you dream"
(anonymous graffito at the Someday Cafe)

Yes, you're right that the church as depicted by Pullman is pretty evil, but then he is talking about the church in a parallel universe, so I guess he's trying to say that if organized religion became as powerful as it is there, then it would be evil. The Christianity in Pullman's books seems a lot like Spanish Inquisition-type Catholicism to me (though I'm no expert). Or something.

As for why I think children's books should deal with weighty issues such as religion... I've run out of time on the computer, so I'll get back to this soon!

quote:

Originally posted by Alex:
Yes, you're right that the church as depicted by Pullman is pretty evil, but then he is talking about the church in a parallel universe, so I guess he's trying to say that if organized religion became as powerful as it is there, then it would be evil. The Christianity in Pullman's books seems a lot like Spanish Inquisition-type Catholicism to me (though I'm no expert). Or something.

As for why I think children's books should deal with weighty issues such as religion... I've run out of time on the computer, so I'll get back to this soon!

it was very inquisitorial like, which is why i enjoyed it (from a Historian's point of view)

has Pullman written anything since?

Just reading this series now for the first time and i'm enjoying them, a quick and absorbing read. As for the background religious stuff going on, i had read them knowing that they were supposedly anti religious, and so far (i'm a quarter of my way through the last book) i have found that it's not nearly as blatant as what i'd expected. In all honesty it's nice to have a different perspective as to the god etc background that is always in fantasy (maybe i've just read too many david eddings books!).

But it's nice to have a fantasy book where the evil god isn't beaten by the good god or whatever. And i haven't found his style patronising or badly written, but actual literature isn't one of my strong points. Though i found his jumps in plot sorta alarming

character lives in one world
*poof*
character now also lives in another and has done for years without anyone noticing.....

sort of like he wrote as he was going but didn't go back to cover up inconsistancies?

Circus, you described my feelings about the Pulllman books almost to a T. Thanks for doing it so much more succinctly than I could have managed. I think that His Dark Materials is very well written (on the whole), but the third book really does turn into anti-religious soap-box rhetoric IMO. (I'm not sure I completely agree on C.S. Lewis, though, mainly because so many kids who read it - me included - never saw the allegory. For them, Alsan was simply a good lion, and that was the extent of it.)

Alex: What did you think of Quarantine? I read it, and while it was well written I thought it was fairly disappointing on the issue of religion.

WARNING, SPOILERS BELOW

Every time Pullman and His Dark Materials come up, I have to essentially type out the same thing... I should just save it somewhere.

I liked it well enough in the beginning, despite having to labor to get through some of the first book because of the choppiness of the writing. The further I went, however, the less I enjoyed the series.

First off, the series was full of inconsitencies, both with the way the universe it had created worked, and in the characters themselves. The third book is the worst with this, there are simply too many characters that do an about face for little or no reason whatsoever. Lyra's mother is a cold hearted bitch who entraps and sends children off to their doom, to be experimented on and have their souls and minds torn apart, who uses every dirty trick in the books to get her way, who murders allies and enemies alike and then suddenly she wants to get back together with Lyra's father, the man she hates most in the world, and bravely and nobly sacrifices her life to save the world.... FOR NO GODDAMN REASON AT ALL!!!

And don't argue that it was because of Lyra either, since she was quite willing to go with her activities for about one and three quarters books after meeting Lyra. So I don't buy that at all.

Second, again especially in the third book, there are a lot of bad dues ex machinas, and things working out for the heros just because they're the hero. I don't have the words to explain how sick I am of this, particularly in fantasy. (Some boarders may remember me going on about this with Harry Potter too).

Case in point, the harpy who is ready to tear Lyra limb from limb on one page and then is quickly and painlessly won over to her side and is saving her life on the next. We talked about patronising writing before in terms of message, but I find these idiotic and ludicruos plot devices to be far more patonising. (And yes, I do find the allegory and message behind the story cheap and patronising, and I'm part of the anti-organized religion crowd).

In addition to my usual critea for judging whether a book or movie is truly good, (does it do at least one of the following: does it move me, does it make me think, it is naunced enough that I can find new things in it when I read or watch it again), I've added two new ones for fantasy. The first is the Complete Idiot test. Would the story be believable, or even necessary if the hero or the villain were not a complete? Second is the Destiny Test. Would this plot device/event/turn of good fortune have happened if the if not to find a way for the hero to be the hero and conquer all in the end?

His Dark Materials fails all of the above.

It does have the occasional cool concept or character, (Iorek kicks ass and is a perfect example of this, a truly great character), but this doesn't outweigh its faults.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: The Wanderer,

quote:

I think that if children's books are going to include Christian content (or content that derives specifically from ANY religion), it should be clear that they do so. The author should make it clear that his/her purpose is to provide a piece of literature that is directly connected to religious beliefs.
-Circus

Wow, I totally disagree. "WARNING - This book contains religious content that may not be suitable for children!"

In the honourable tradition of 'explicit lyrics' stickers for CDs, books could now have their own labels - 'Hindu themes', 'Christian allegory', 'Islamic ideas', and more! What better way for a parent to protect her little one from insidious ideas?

In all seriousness, the day books start labelling their contents is the day I lose faith in humanity. Also, authors have absolutely no public responsibility to "be less subtle" or to make anything clearer than they want to make it. And seeing as we're on the Neil Gaiman board and all, I'll just say that I think he would find the idea of childrens' authors being restricted in that way repulsive.

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so many kids who read [Narnia] - me included - never saw the allegory. For them, Aslan was simply a good lion, and that was the extent of it.
-Thirith

Okay, now I have the cutest mental picture of a little kid being asked his opinion about Aslan, furrowing his brows in deep thought, and finally concluding, "He's a good lion." Maybe with a firm nod to drive the point home.

Anyway, I enjoyed both His Dark Materials, which I read about 3 years ago, and Narnia, which I read in its entirety a few months ago. Having read and seen (on the PBS or whatever adaptations) bits of the Narnia stories since I was small, I can attest that I totally didn't get the Christian symbolism at all as a child. I put off reading them as a teenager because I thought they would be boring now that I knew they were 'secretly' Christian allegory. The only reasons I finally decided to read them was because I'm so into Tolkien, and Tolkien and Lewis thought alike in so many ways; and because I'd started reading Lewis's other stuff and figured I had to read Narnia. In short, I found them to be enjoyable stories, and theologically provocative to boot (esp. the last two books).

/hijack

*blinks*

*runs and hides from the spoilers*

i shall return when i finish the third book....

Sorry about that Hal. I put a spoiler warning at the top of my post now, should have done so from the start.

no worries

the bit i read before i ran away i knew was going to happen, he is about as subtle as a slap in the face.

warning spoilers below

ah finished now and yup the books tone certainly changes about half way into the 3rd book, where he starts really heavily laying into organised religion.

but i do have to say that he isn't against religion, there is no way that the author is athiest, at least the message in his books comes accross that one has to have a purpose in life so that one can 'move on' in death which is still a religious message.

What particularily bugged me is that the purpose of 'dust' was never fully explained. Nor why the flow stopped due to the adam eve stuff. All seemed a bit dodgy to me.

And i completely agree with you ronin, his character developement is lacking. And Iorek is one that was done well though i quite liked serafina as well, perhaps due to the finnish nature of her name.

So while i enjoyed the books i'm not particularily amazed with the author.

I just finished His Dark Materials. First, it took me some time to get into the first book. I couldn't connect with Lyra at the beginning, but about a third of the way in the story grabbed me and I just wanted to know the whole story. I read right thru the next two books. I really enjoyed the story and was really interested to see how Pullman would make the connections between Quantum Mechanics and spirituality/Biblical dogma. But the second half of Amber Spyglass left me totally disappointed. He raced through things, didn't even try to tie up lose ends and just basically quickly glided over eveything of interest. And the ending was just disappointing. It is really too bad because I really thought this story was going to be something mind-blowing and for me, ended up less than nose-blowing. I WANT a beeter ending!!!!

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Originally posted by halucinagenia:

sort of like he wrote as he was going but didn't go back to cover up inconsistancies?

This is exactly one of the problems that I had, the inconsistencies and loose ends everywhere.

Exacly what I've been worried about with Harry Potter. Rowling has introduced so many things, and wrapped up so few that I've always been worried that the last book will just fall apart because there is too much to tie up. Series like these are huges trains with tons of inertia that are bound to just crash if all the gears aren't there and working.

I thought His Dark Materials was the most terrible series I have ever read. Terribly written. Terrible characterization. I have friends that swear by it, and I don't get it.

I'm not a Christian, but I think the Chronicles of Narnia one of the best fantasy series ever. It's just good story.

Pullman just seemed like he wanted to make a point. Which is perfectly normal for a writer. But it only works if you are a good writer.