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He also put 'himself' (okay, an artist with a different name) in his reamake of Lars Von Triar's 'Kingdom' (Kingdom Hospital) as a guy who was hit by a van... and lots of his characters tend to be writers.

To a certain extent, I can handle the veiled disguise if it's done reasonably well (Haven't seen Kingdom Hospital, so I can't comment on that). Neil did it in Sandman with some of the writers (The playwright at the beginning of Fables and Reflections; Richard Maddoc; etc.) and that doesn't bother me. However, I didn't like it when King showed up in Dreamcatcher post-accident -- it was really distracting and pulled me out of the story.

But it's almost unforgivable for something like the Dark Tower when the author appears as himself. I haven't finished the series yet, but when I got to the end of Wolves Of Calla and realized Stephen King would soon become a plot point, it just didn't work. I don't see how the rest of the series can even hold a candle to the first half. Who knows? Maybe I'll change my mind after I read it.

Like you said, LoY, I could handle it in a post-modernist story, maybe (though it still seems a bit like self-flattery) but not in sci-fi/fantasy, especially something so popcorn as Dark Tower. If George Lucas showed up as himself in Star Wars, as George Lucas, I would be pissed.

On the other hand, I heard Bruce Campbell's "Make Love the Bruce Campbell Way" is pretty good.

I agree with much written. The Chosen one being a special bloody annoyance. Oh look, we've all been sat around under the grinding boots of these terrible leaders, hanging onto a piece of paper with some banal prohecy written out by some long dead monk one night after a particuarly badly cooked meal and an LSD chaser. But thank goodness! There's a Chosen One turning up and making a mockery of the kings campaign to kill off all the left handed fourth children of redheaded weavers born in a potting shed during the first month after a cow was seen juggling mangos in a parsely field.

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Originally posted by aitapata:
I hate the scifi/fantasy writers who make up words and then ITALICIZE them. As if it somehow makes it more exotic, italicized.

In a like manner, if the first twenty pages of the book are devoted to a pronounciation guide and glossery, I'm not going to be reading those pages. You may claim that Steve is pronounced Gladys in your fantasy land, but I'm going to be reading it as Steve

i don't necessarily see a difference between sci-fi/fantasy and post-modern fiction. they're not mutually exclusive, at least, by any means. i think it's important to call attention to the constructedness of narrative, so i'm not terribly concerned by being "pulled out of the story" or whatever. but like any other literary device, it has to be done WELL and it has to serve the plot or themes, and not just for its own sake or to be cute.

"The Chosen One" is definitely annoying. i don't know, really you can pull off anything if you know how to do it correctly. MirrorMask is a dream story, but you KNOW it is from the beginning, and yet the consequences are not necessarily destroyed by that. even Deus Ex Machina can work sometimes, if part of the point of the story is that character is no longer destiny.

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Originally posted by Cavenagh:
There's a Chosen One turning up and making a mockery of the kings campaign to kill off all the left handed fourth children of redheaded weavers born in a potting shed during the first month after a cow was seen juggling mangos in a parsely field.

I think I've read that one...

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Originally posted by St.CountZero:
What really annoys me is when in an otherwise good book, the author has a foreign character using random words from their native language, to point out that they are, indeed, foreign. I'm sorry, but anybody who speaks any English knows the word "yes", and doesn't randomly revert to "oui", "ja", "da" or whathaveyou in the middle of a conversation. And if they can use relatively complex English words like, I don't know, "circumnavigate", they're not likely to stumble and use their own language when saying "baby" or "milk" or "car". It feels really unnatural and just really bugs me.

That's so not been my experience with the French- and Spanish-speaking population around here. In fact, they're MORE likely to use longer English words, but use their native language for familiar items, particularly in conversation. It's a way of saying, "I'm not talking about an American baby, but a Hispanic baby," a way of using language to create a soft separation of ideas.

And I'm not even French and I occasionally say "oui" instead of "yes."

Consequently, I find the periodic use of foreign language by ESL characters realistic, but your mileage may vary.

"The Chosen One" is such an archetype of all fiction that I really can't say that I don't like it. What I don't like it is that in almost all cases they start out with no knowledge of the extent of their powers, they learn by almost causing disaster but never quite enough that they stop being heroic, and there's always a dark side to their powers.

Just once I'd like to read a book about a girl vampire slayer who has all her shit together, is extremely well-trained and is absolutely puissant in the source of her power, or a young wizard who's known he's destined to fight The Ultimate Darkness since he was a toddler and is ready to give it a go. That doesn't ruin the opportunity for conflict at all, so far as I can see, it only changes it. And I'm just tired of hearing Chosen Ones complaining about their destiny.

Sounds a bit like the Castlevania games I'm always going on about... at least some of them. 'Richter Belmont, trained from birth in the use of the Vampire Killer whip, goes forth into Dracula's castle to whoop Dracula's ass and try to end the curse of the Belmonts.' Usually you die a bunch of times 'cause the early games are really hard, but the character is all 'i've trained for this my whole life. I'm going to whoop Dracula bad'.

Not sure if that counts, though there have probably been a few comids/anime about it.

Well, most action games have a good deal less character development, but I'd like to venture that Samus Aran also falls into this catagory. She was orphaned by the space pirates, (twice!) and the "chosen one" hatchling of the Chozo, but she is definately more of a problem solver than a drama queen.

Yeah, action games seem to be the sole refuge of action heroes who know what they're doing. I'm all for feet of clay, but most seem to have feet of molybdenum or just plain lead.

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Originally posted by Dweller in Darkness:

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Originally posted by St.CountZero:
What really annoys me is when in an otherwise good book, the author has a foreign character using random words from their native language, to point out that they are, indeed, foreign. I'm sorry, but anybody who speaks any English knows the word "yes", and doesn't randomly revert to "oui", "ja", "da" or whathaveyou in the middle of a conversation. And if they can use relatively complex English words like, I don't know, "circumnavigate", they're not likely to stumble and use their own language when saying "baby" or "milk" or "car". It feels really unnatural and just really bugs me.

That's so not been my experience with the French- and Spanish-speaking population around here. In fact, they're MORE likely to use longer English words, but use their native language for familiar items, particularly in conversation. It's a way of saying, "I'm not talking about an American baby, but a Hispanic baby," a way of using language to create a soft separation of ideas.

And I'm not even French and I occasionally say "oui" instead of "yes."

Consequently, I find the periodic use of foreign language by ESL characters realistic, but your mileage may vary.

see, I never; ever say "oui", ever. Or use French words for familiar items. I might have some trouble readjusting if I just spent a half hour on the phone with my mom, but that's about it. Maybe it only feels unnatural to me because it's my language, or maybe I speak better English that the people you hear do. I don't mean to be arrogant here, just that's what I have a degree in, after all. I don't know.

I personally have a character in the novel I'm writing that takes long pauses, because he is mentally searching for words, but he doesn't break into his own langauge, mostly because I didn't want to invent one.

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Originally posted by Dweller in Darkness:
"The Chosen One" is such an archetype of all fiction that I really can't say that I don't like it. What I don't like it is that in almost all cases they start out with no knowledge of the extent of their powers, they learn by almost causing disaster but never quite enough that they stop being heroic, and there's always a dark side to their powers.

Just once I'd like to read a book about a girl vampire slayer who has all her shit together, is extremely well-trained and is absolutely puissant in the source of her power, or a young wizard who's known he's destined to fight The Ultimate Darkness since he was a toddler and is ready to give it a go. That doesn't ruin the opportunity for conflict at all, so far as I can see, it only changes it. And I'm just tired of hearing Chosen Ones complaining about their destiny.

Just out of curioustiy, do you run most of your D&D games starting at first level? 'cause 'default' D&D tends to follow the 'start out weak, get stronger' curve... whereas the last two games i've played had heroes starting at a competant level

the book i just finished, 'Neveryon' by Samuel Deleny, actually has the author in the story and I don't mind it. but he's a full-on literary critic/scholar and knows that he's writing a metatextual postmodern whatsamadingus. i just don't like "i'm going to have my characters save me from the bad man who hit me with his van"

I tend to start games around 4th or 5th level because I run stories, not worlds. That is, I want to tell a tale, I don't want to run a world, and it's harder to tell a story about someone who can get taken down in a round by a dire squirrel.

That said, I'm trying to tell a tale right now in our Arcana Evolved game, and they're all 1st level. It's a very different sort of fantasy game, though, so I think it might work.

oh cool... i hear alot about that. i think the D&D game going on now has characters starting at 3rd level.

in the Serenity game i'm in all the characters are at least as competant as the show characters, so its less about 'how do we not suck' and more about actually getting jobs, keeping flying, etc

default power level for Mage is 'wow. i can cure cancer, banish demons, and throw fireballs', which is a bit weird... kinda stunned me at first

'traditional' superhero comics do what you were talking about, with the heroes knowing how to use their powers/skills from the start... with maybe a flashback to explain the origin story. stuff like Spider-Man does go for the 'start off weak, get powerful' thing

I have no literary devices that bother me as such. Any device can be used well or badly. In other words, what I mind is bad, lazy writing - a good writer can inject new life into an old device.

Then again, I am a postmodernist, so what else am I supposed to say?

well, you have a good point too, but some devices tend to be used badly more than others, or maybe they are more annoying when used badly.

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Originally posted by Dweller in Darkness:
Just once I'd like to read a book about a girl vampire slayer who has all her shit together, is extremely well-trained and is absolutely puissant in the source of her power, or a young wizard who's known he's destined to fight The Ultimate Darkness since he was a toddler and is ready to give it a go. That doesn't ruin the opportunity for conflict at all, so far as I can see, it only changes it. And I'm just tired of hearing Chosen Ones complaining about their destiny.

I loved Sarah Connor's development from normality in Terminator 1 to professional in Terminator 2. Hey, there's a serious threat, so let's get serious about it.

Whenever a character goes to the Dark Side, part of the coolness is that they lose a lot of the silliness, and you feel that, finally, they're in it for real and playing for keeps. I loved the alternate-reality stories where the DS9 and Voyager people are evil.

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Originally posted by Thirith & His Enormous Tibia:
I have no literary devices that bother me as such. Any device can be used well or badly. In other words, what I mind is bad, lazy writing - a good writer can inject new life into an old device.

Then again, I am a postmodernist, so what else am I supposed to say?

I was assuming that we're running with the idea that these are examples of the annoying uses of literary devices. Otherwise I agree, there's no literary device that's completely without purpose, although some are terribly cliched.

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but sometimes i just want to yell 'get over your darn auto accident, or at least stop writing about it'

I liked the anteater... actually we have the series on DVD. The ending was a total copout, though. Especially the we go back in time and make everything not have happened! twist. and the a anteater turning out to be Anubis because the little girl couldn't pronounce his name when he clearly articulated it to her. "Anubis" does not easily morph into "Antibus" unless there is some sort of sound interferance going on, or possibly brain damage.

The guy that got hit by the car I think was one of the more effective bits, I thought. A good depiction of what it's like to be totally helpless in a hospital. It was much better than when he spent any time at all with the fully conscious characters, cause every one of them was a walking cliche'.

The Jesus and Baseball episodes were just obnoxious, though, and the ending, like I said, was a complete freakin' copout. If not for that ending, I'd almost say that the moments of hallucinatory weridness and the opening credit sequence made up for the crap characters, storytelling and dialog. Almost.

So, yeah. Taking a story straight out of the Bible and putting absolutely no new twists in it to make it interesting, that's obnoxious. Also, allowing a trained MD to in all seriousness explain something as a "miracle." Immediately after it happens. Without looking at any freakin' charts.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: VegaRiad,

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Originally posted by ZoneSeek:
I loved Sarah Connor's development from normality in Terminator 1 to professional in Terminator 2. Hey, there's a serious threat, so let's get serious about it.

It's just the kind of character development that makes sense to me. I mean, she had no illusions about her purpose, she'd seen it, she knew the threat was real, and that it would affect her son directly, so she did what she could.