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*102 gold stars*
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Picture of Cavenagh
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So Frodo, are you saying that you object to the content of a book differing from what you expect it to be according to your personal notions of genre? Or that you dislike visions of sex and violence full stop?

American Gods is a Modern Fantasy. That's a very broad genre. There are no rules saying that masturbation, ritual sacrifice, sucking vaginas or tattooed penises must be excluded for the sake of readers with a nervous disposition. If you find such visceral passages objectionable then that's not the authors fault. Bad writing is an authors fault, misinformation is an authors fault (I'm looking at you Dan Brown, guilty on both counts), you disliking content is not an authors fault. If the content of a novel disturbs you and you dislike such feelings, put the book down. Just because a book is not shelved in the Horror section does not mean that it won't contain horror. A book placed amongst the Teen novels can easily contain scenes of heroin abuse. A novel with the orange spine of a Penguin Classic might well be light pornography. A genre is a broad band containing many variations upon a theme. And anyone not expecting sex and violence from fairy tales hasn't read many.

I get the impression that you are disapproving of the writing more than disturbed by it. Are sexual acts, references to genitalia, consumption of body parts and references to the occult objectionable to you because of your moral beliefs? If so, fine. Just don't be shocked that others do not share such beliefs, especially when reading fiction.

As to the accusation that writing such scenes is cheap and supposed to shock the reader, no. Not at all. They are not exploitative nor titillating but integral parts of the story and of character. Anubis eats human hearts. That's what he's done since he first doggy paddled in the Nile and that is what he will always do. Snow White has always been about sexual power. All that Gaiman is doing is telling the stories according to the events and the characters according to their lights. In fact a fair amount of his writing is the retelling of old versions of bleached tales.

Gaiman hasn't forced anything upon you. Remember that you have chosen to read the book. You have opened yourself up to be told a story. You always have the option of not reading.





Hermits have no peer pressure
 
Posts: 8096 | Registered: April 09, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Clinically abnormal
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Picture of Priest.
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quote:

Paraphrased all to Hell from James Kennedy Toole
"SHOCKING!" screamed Ignatius.

"The men responsible for putting this abortion on film should be executed!" he bellowed ever louder in the theater as he took another handfull of popcorn and further frightened the children in the audience with his chewing habits.


___/-*-\___/-*-\___/-*-\___

Part-Time Deity, the once and future Marquis of New England, Lord of the Element of Suprise, Duke of New London, Viscount of the 10th Dimension (it's small and somewhat stringy, but nice in October), First Herald of Using Really Big Words While Drunk, First among Equals, Knight of the Hashishin, Third Praetor of the Second Waste of God's Time, Son of the Fifth Dawn, High Inquisitor of Caspar Milqe Toast, and General Spiffy Dick.
 
Posts: 1310 | Location: Three words: Man. Hat.Tan. | Registered: April 24, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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That's a neat precis of Confederacy of Dunces.


If it isn't well, stap me zur





Hermits have no peer pressure
 
Posts: 8096 | Registered: April 09, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Mustapha Wormwood:
quote:
Originally posted by mischief the dancing polarbear:
and I never said comics were 'dull'. Read my post. Again... I wrote my thesis on Sandman. I DO NOT THINK COMICS ARE DULL, and never said so.

Yes and if you've read both of my posts, you can understand that the first one, in which I asked "how can a lifetime's work of comics be considered dull" was directed at you, while the second post was directed at GMZoe, who I felt had not grasped my point from the first post. As for your thesis, it's pretty cool that you did it on Sandman, any chance I could read it? If not, that's cool too, it's just that I can't seem to find much scholarly work on comics that actually has something to say about the artform as an artform, unique in itself, and that's something that's really missing from the field, in my opinion. Also, you mentioned that a lot of Neil's comics work wasn't great. I was just wondering what you didn't consider great. Aside from those spawn stories and the second death miniseries (haven't read last temptation) I really can't think of much comics work he did that I wouldn't consider great. Even his 8-page story in Batman black and white was cool as hell.


Yes, I'd like to read the thesis too. I'm really curious about the inner dynamic of comics writing/producing as an art form. When I first read my first Gaiman works (the monk and fox work and a middle series Sandman TPB) I was amazed, "Where's this coming from?" :-0
Obviously it wasn't coming from 70s Action Comics or Avengers (i.e., mainstream DC/Marvel).
 
Posts: 9 | Registered: July 13, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Clinically abnormal
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Picture of Priest.
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quote:
Originally posted by Cavenagh:
That's a neat precis of Confederacy of Dunces.


If it isn't well, stap me zur


Not only that, it's analogous of the current conversation. *gasp*


___/-*-\___/-*-\___/-*-\___

Part-Time Deity, the once and future Marquis of New England, Lord of the Element of Suprise, Duke of New London, Viscount of the 10th Dimension (it's small and somewhat stringy, but nice in October), First Herald of Using Really Big Words While Drunk, First among Equals, Knight of the Hashishin, Third Praetor of the Second Waste of God's Time, Son of the Fifth Dawn, High Inquisitor of Caspar Milqe Toast, and General Spiffy Dick.
 
Posts: 1310 | Location: Three words: Man. Hat.Tan. | Registered: April 24, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I wanna thank you Cavenagh for your response. Actually Those parts that shocked are adaptations. I couldn´t see it that way. Of course that Snow White is about sexual power. I knew it but I couldn´t associate with the scene that I talked about.
As to American Gods, I finally finished the novel and, all in all I liked it.
As a response to your questions, is not about moral issues. Believe is not on that direction. But, I do believe there are some rules among genres. They can be bend and even broken, but the rules exist. Is the very essence of a genre.
Why didn´t I put the book down?? Because I LOVED Stardust, I enojyed Coraline and even liked Smoke and Mirrors. If it were about moral beliefs, the short story about the gigolo and the sex star would have bothered me, and it didn´t.
Anyway I do believe you do force an image into a reader´s mind. I´m not saying that it is evil. You always have choice of putting the book down, I know it. But in this case I really admire a lot of thngs about Neil, so I wanted to give him a chance.
I know that what I´m going to menton isn´t about Neil, buy in the novel Eragon, Paolini describes and staked baby. I thought it was unnecesary to do so. But I kept on reading.
When I say that you know what you are getting yourself into, I´m not wrong. I read a lot of horror novels, so you know what to expect.
I just don´t like those kind of horrors, that sometimes you do find in horror and on Gaiman. I don´t think is nice to read that. That´s all.

And High Priest of His Own Madness, how about being just a little less sarcastic. I´m not Ignatius Reilly. I´m not that kind of idiot, so why the joke. Ok?? I´m just expressing my opinion. But if you would like to see me as Ignatius I bet that you are one of the dunces whou conjurr around him.

Greetings.
 
Posts: 12 | Location: Bag End | Registered: June 30, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Clinically abnormal
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Frodo, I'm one of those folks that mocks everyone, including himself. I am quite possibly God's own human embodiement of hyperbole. Don't take offense. I simply find your belief you hold no control of what images an author conjours to be ironic, since ultimately, you bought the book and continued reading it, even after their abuse of creative powers.

Disturbing imagery is not something I particularly enjoy. But I also find it useful in certain situations as a writer myself.

And Ignatius was a genius. He was also entertaining to listen to.


___/-*-\___/-*-\___/-*-\___

Part-Time Deity, the once and future Marquis of New England, Lord of the Element of Suprise, Duke of New London, Viscount of the 10th Dimension (it's small and somewhat stringy, but nice in October), First Herald of Using Really Big Words While Drunk, First among Equals, Knight of the Hashishin, Third Praetor of the Second Waste of God's Time, Son of the Fifth Dawn, High Inquisitor of Caspar Milqe Toast, and General Spiffy Dick.
 
Posts: 1310 | Location: Three words: Man. Hat.Tan. | Registered: April 24, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
really is wicked
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Picture of St.Barbarella
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quote:
Originally posted by the BEAR:
Then I get a story of abstracts. To me the ending didnt work.


I got that with his short story 'Monarch of the Glen'. It's the same, it started off great, a kind of 'Further adventures of Shadow'. But then, where the pay off was suposed to come, I got a load of......yeah, abstracts and ideas that I really didn't understand but felt that I should of. As if I was now looked in from the outside.


But apart from that, I love his work anyway!!!


-----------------------------

St.Barbarella:
Sexy Tart.
Buys Ale, Reads Books, And Really Enjoys Leaving Lovers Aching - JP


yes, University is all about incontinence - Mythos

You are a Tradesman. Long before labor unions, your guilds were powerful enough to make a free-market capitalist run away screaming. Who controls the British Crown? Who keeps the metric system down? You do, you do.
 
Posts: 11561 | Location: ooop norrff | Registered: May 09, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
really is wicked
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Picture of St.Barbarella
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quote:
Originally posted by Opportunities for Mischief:
The Sandman does overshadow his other work in the medium for the moment. In the long run he'll benefit from this, I reckon.


I agree.

If any of his early novels beat the Sandman, then where can he go from there?

Mastering everything you set your mind to imediately does not a happy person or worthwhile career make.


-----------------------------

St.Barbarella:
Sexy Tart.
Buys Ale, Reads Books, And Really Enjoys Leaving Lovers Aching - JP


yes, University is all about incontinence - Mythos

You are a Tradesman. Long before labor unions, your guilds were powerful enough to make a free-market capitalist run away screaming. Who controls the British Crown? Who keeps the metric system down? You do, you do.
 
Posts: 11561 | Location: ooop norrff | Registered: May 09, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Now, the only thing that really does bother me about Neil is how so many of his themes and idea gets repeated throughout his different stories.

Actually, this is exactly what fascinates me about Neil Gaiman's writing. I'm not an expert on mythology, but I think that all of mankind's myths are variations on a theme, and that's what I see in Neil's writing. I just love those subtle variations. Smile
Someone else in this thread said that Neil's probably limiting his audience to readers with a mythologic background. But then again, if someone's not willing or able to put e.g. "anansi" in a Google search bar and hit enter, they're probably better off reading Stephen King anyway. Wink
But as this thread is about complaints, here's mine: Neil's blog is so fast paced that it's hard to keep up with, even with RSS. :|
 
Posts: 8 | Location: Germany | Registered: February 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
will not Ling Ling you, not ever
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quote:
Originally posted by Cavenagh:
So Frodo, are you saying that you object to the content of a book differing from what you expect it to be according to your personal notions of genre? Or that you dislike visions of sex and violence full stop?

American Gods is a Modern Fantasy. That's a very broad genre. There are no rules saying that masturbation, ritual sacrifice, sucking vaginas or tattooed penises must be excluded for the sake of readers with a nervous disposition. If you find such visceral passages objectionable then that's not the authors fault. Bad writing is an authors fault, misinformation is an authors fault (I'm looking at you Dan Brown, guilty on both counts), you disliking content is not an authors fault. If the content of a novel disturbs you and you dislike such feelings, put the book down. Just because a book is not shelved in the Horror section does not mean that it won't contain horror. A book placed amongst the Teen novels can easily contain scenes of heroin abuse. A novel with the orange spine of a Penguin Classic might well be light pornography. A genre is a broad band containing many variations upon a theme. And anyone not expecting sex and violence from fairy tales hasn't read many.

I get the impression that you are disapproving of the writing more than disturbed by it. Are sexual acts, references to genitalia, consumption of body parts and references to the occult objectionable to you because of your moral beliefs? If so, fine. Just don't be shocked that others do not share such beliefs, especially when reading fiction.

As to the accusation that writing such scenes is cheap and supposed to shock the reader, no. Not at all. They are not exploitative nor titillating but integral parts of the story and of character. Anubis eats human hearts. That's what he's done since he first doggy paddled in the Nile and that is what he will always do. Snow White has always been about sexual power. All that Gaiman is doing is telling the stories according to the events and the characters according to their lights. In fact a fair amount of his writing is the retelling of old versions of bleached tales.

Gaiman hasn't forced anything upon you. Remember that you have chosen to read the book. You have opened yourself up to be told a story. You always have the option of not reading.


I almost wish that it was a little bit more PG, but not for my own reading. My 14 y/o niece has read and loved Coraline and Stardust, and while I know she is intelligent enough to understand something like American Gods, and would enjoy the content, I know that she is not mature enough to handle the sexual content. Eh, I'll give her a copy when she's a bit older and can handle that stuff.

On a personal note though, I can't stand when authors/artists/etc are censored for their content. If you don't like it, don't read/look at/listen to it.
 
Posts: 3803 | Location: Basking in the desert sun at the cliff's edge | Registered: February 08, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Neil Gaiman    www.NeilgaimanBoard.com    www.NeilgaimanBoard.com  Hop To Forum Categories  Stuff and Things.  Hop To Forums  Thoughts About Neil    Complaints about Gaiman's writing

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